Talk:Proto-Sinaitic script

It is requested that an image or images of one or more symbols or characters illustrating proto-sinaitic glyphs for the synopsis table (more details can be found on pages 8 and 9 here: https://www.unicode.org/L2/L2019/19299-revisiting-proto-sinaitic.pdf ) be included in this article to improve its quality. Specific illustrations, plots or diagrams can be requested at the Graphic Lab.
For more information, refer to discussion on this page and/or the listing at Wikipedia:Requested images.

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WikiProject Ancient Egypt to-do list:

Needed articles.

We should have an article on every pyramid and every nome in Ancient Egypt. I'm sure the rest of us can think of other articles we should have.

Cleanup.

To start with, most of the general history articles badly need attention. And I'm told that at least some of the dynasty articles need work. Any other candidates?

Standardize the Chronology.

A boring task, but the benefit of doing it is that you can set the dates !(e.g., why say Khufu lived 2589-2566? As long as you keep the length of his reign correct, or cite a respected source, you can date it 2590-2567 or 2585-2563)

Stub sorting

Anyone? I consider this probably the most unimportant of tasks on Wikipedia, but if you believe it needs to be done . . .

Data sorting.

This is a project I'd like to take on some day, & could be applied to more of Wikipedia than just Ancient Egypt. Take one of the standard authorities of history or culture -- Herotodus, the Elder Pliny, the writings of Breasted or Kenneth Kitchen, & see if you can't smoothly merge quotations or information into relevant articles. Probably a good exercise for someone who owns one of those impressive texts, yet can't get access to a research library.

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𐩸 is in which Serabit el-Khadim inscription?

The symbol is shown under the Table of Symbol's "Serabit el-Khadim" column, but I don't know if that is accurate. I can see the symbol in the izbet sartah ostracon's abecedary, but I don't see it in any of the Serabit el-Khadim proto-Sinaitic inscriptions, unless there's a source I am missing? 72.216.186.113 (talk) 15:29, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I'm aware, you aren't missing anything. I have also been thinking about this matter. I have yet to see the "ziq" symbol in any of the inscriptions.

Therefore, the symbol will be removed from the article unless we find something else, like another inscription. Cnscrptr (talk) 03:35, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fig I / 777 here looks like that shape. This is from Petrie, Lahun II. Macalister also references such a shape in Gezer, and disagrees with a colleague who had a hypothesis about it, I can't remember exactly what. I think they called it "Cypriote script" so if you search for that you might see their opinions on it. Macalister thought it wasn't "Cypriote."

Temerarius (talk) 20:17, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There's another instance of the shape in pottery marks on the last page of Petrie's Kahun Gurob and Hawara, just linked in my most recent post below. Temerarius (talk) 00:08, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pillars

https://postimg.cc/QBhMN1Bp

Interestingly, there's another Egyptian pillar (hieroglyph O30) that could be read acrophonically as s from sxnt. But visually, it's like w. My argument for the development of the djed-samek depends on the rope replacing the pillar itself as time goes on, watch my videos. Temerarius (talk) 02:50, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Proto-Sinaitic, being primarily Semitic, must also have the glyphs translate to the same sound value, in this case, proper acrophony (the glyph must match a Semitic word that starts with that sound to represent it). The O30 glyph means support, matching the Hebrew word "semekh" for support/fulcrum. In this case, we'll have to read the Y-looking glyphs in their context to see whether Waw or Samekh fits more closely. Cnscrptr (talk) 02:23, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hall of shame

As for this page itself, I think the most embarrassing errors are ginap grape, and the duck for tsade. Don't forget good sense for good sources. Temerarius (talk) 02:55, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The ġinab grape's name was indicated by Colless while its sound value as ɣ comes from Albright. If this synthesis proves true, then likely a part of the glyph or an entirely different one is the origin of said glyph.

The duck for ṯ' was shown by another more recent source.

What are the flaws in these sources? Cnscrptr (talk) 18:05, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What, seriously? Wilson-Wright's table 5 isn't risible to you? "A more definite conclusion, however, must await" the authors themselves admit. An admitted wild-ass guess isn't encyclopedic. These scholars are usually running the other way, to say "Certainly!"

Temerarius (talk) 00:16, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for noticing that. I removed the glyph accordingly. Cnscrptr (talk) 02:36, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.academia.edu/40029675

In this one, Wimmer 2010, the authors' first impression (initial gut reaction being crucial according to fakebuster Thomas Hoving) was that the inscriptions were a hoax. And they don't go on to say they were wholly convinced, either. Sounds like they didn't have something better to write about. We probably shouldn't refer to this one either, unless somebody comes up with an interpretation that bolsters its verity.

Temerarius (talk) 19:09, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As for the ġinab grape, like I said, it came from a synthesis of Colless and Albright's sources depicted in the following pdf already in the TOC section: https://www.unicode.org/L2/L2019/19299-revisiting-proto-sinaitic.pdf However, looking into it, the only thing supporting this assertion is Albright's interpretation as ɣ and Colless assigning a name to a Proto-Canaanite ayn glyph with a dot.

As for the acrophony, it does not match as the Proto-Semitic and Proto-Afroasiatic word for grape is ʿanbab, Arabic (which preserved most merged sounds) is 'inab, leaving Ugaritic as the only one with the ɣ phoneme, failing the acrophony test.

Hence, you were right that the ġinab grape, which I've thought about before, is most likely inaccurate and will therefore be removed from the article. Cnscrptr (talk) 02:33, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you!

Temerarius (talk) 16:09, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

More evidence from Har Karkom?

I found some petroglyphs that could put new light on especially the Serabit inscriptions. Check out this video Temerarius (talk) 18:05, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

.

Temerarius (talk) 18:14, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's nice but I can't find where the source provides an interpretation. Cnscrptr (talk) 20:00, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Infiynjte, when will you get that I'm offering novel interpretations here? I'm making claims. The author is an apologist; the book isn't worth reading outside the photos. They don't know about proto-Sinaitic.

Temerarius (talk) 20:53, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I already knew your proposals were novel rather than academic. In that case, we obviously cannot do much with your interpretations since Wikipedia relies on published sources, which in this context refers to research, unless you publish well-substantiated papers, like you said before. Cnscrptr (talk) 01:54, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What part was too novel for you? I'd be happy to walk you through any of it.

Temerarius (talk) 19:17, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

z

https://postimg.cc/fVQpx3BT

https://postimg.cc/G99Wrn4r

Has anyone tried to link z to hieroglyph N23 or N37a?

Temerarius (talk) 21:33, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

head

https://i.postimg.cc/tCnGG2P1/image.png

I haven't double checked anything yet but my first impresion on seing this blobby one on the upper right and lower left was they looked better than D1, D3, D19 and D20 "rs", "tp," et cetera for the blobby one in the evidence. I don't know what hieroglyph that is, I asked refdesk. Temerarius (talk) 02:57, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yet more inscriptions? Forgotten evidence from JRAS 1920

I'm not sure if everything mentioned in the intermittently-insightful and humorously triumphant 1920 Journal, Royal Asiatic Society by Rev A H Sayce is in our articles.

https://ia804707.us.archive.org/15/items/in.ernet.dli.2015.24465/2015.24465.Journal-Of-The-Royal-Asiatic-Society-1920.pdf

The "Kypriote" connection is probably a stretch, but the wooden instrument in Petrie's Kahun sounds promising. I've read that book (Weren't there more than one with Kahun in the title?) and don't remember what Sayce is talking about. I'm going to download it again. https://archive.org/details/cu31924028675399/page/n111/mode/2up?view=theater It's pretty funny how Sayce interprets "Kenites" like everyone does when there are better options.

I hesitate to link Sayce here since I worry any of his statements could be taken uncritically, like the comments on plene spelling which are confidence in nonknowledge. Anyway, since the pieces of evidence are so few I'd love if somebody tried to find the pieces mentioned.

And read at least the titles of the other articles in that publication, there's some great stuff.

Temerarius (talk) 00:03, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

h?

https://archive.org/details/Petrie1939/page/n54/mode/1up?view=theater

This one looks like many earlier Semitic script hs. I'm going to try to check on if Petrie's first dynasty dating, obviously early, is based on style or stratiography. Temerarius (talk) 02:49, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]